Better late than never...
I hope this gets a lot of positive press, but that term seems to be a bit of an oxymoron nowadays...and speaking of better late than never, a belated tip o' the "-do rag" to Villainous Company.
Anyway, good news is supposed to travel fast:
Text of the Fatwa
The Fiqh Council of North America wishes to reaffirm Islam's absolute condemnation of terrorism and religious extremism.
Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not "martyrs."
The Qur'an, Islam's revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Qur'an, 5:32)
Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi)
God mandates moderation in faith and in all aspects of life when He states in the Qur'an: "We made you to be a community of the middle way, so that (with the example of your lives) you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind." (Qur'an, 2:143)
In another verse, God explains our duties as human beings when he says: "Let there arise from among you a band of people who invite to righteousness, and enjoin good and forbid evil." (Qur'an, 3:104)
Islam teaches us to act in a caring manner to all of God's creation. The Prophet Muhammad, who is described in the Qur'an as "a mercy to the worlds" said: "All creation is the family of God, and the person most beloved by God (is the one) who is kind and caring toward His family."
In the light of the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:
1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.
We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Qur'an, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad – peace be upon him. We urge all people to resolve all conflicts in just and peaceful manners.
We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism. We pray for the safety and security of our country, the United States, and its people. We pray for the safety and security of all inhabitants of our planet. We pray that interfaith harmony and cooperation prevail both in the United States and all around the globe.
If this saves just one life, it will have been worth it; I hope it saves many lives, on both sides of the conflict...
posted by camojack | 15:52
73 Comments:
My prayer is that you are right Camo.
Regards,
BTW, where did you find this? Got a link?
O.K. Now let's see the rubber meet the road! It's not good enough to just say it...'ya gotta DO it, too!
truth_is_freedom:
"Quod erat demonstrandum" (Q.E.D.) is typically used after proving a point logically; what point do you feel you have proven?
PS: The mission that was accomplished was to depose Saddam Hussein...so yes, Mission Accomplished! Showing in the polls, indeed. This isn't a freakin' popularity contest, it's a war.
Hawkeye®:
Here's a link for you:
Muslim-American scholars issue fatwa...
'da Bunny:
Quite right. As I said in a prior post:
"Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words..."
rusty:
Unfortunately, you are quite correct regarding the actual effect of scholarly fatwas on terrorist types. We can only hope that some of them can be dissuaded; it would be a start, at any rate. As I said though, if just one life is spared it is a good thing...even more lives spared, so much the better.
Thanks for the book recommendation, BTW.
SGT USMC 1ea:
I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em. If people want to "spout unsupported liberal mantras", that's on them...
SGT USMC 1ea:
C'est vrai. Je parle seulement pour me. Je ne suis pas responsable de ce que d'autres disent.
Pero mí Español es todavia mejor.
Verstehen Sie?
mig:
As surely as the Sun rises in the East, no matter what happens, for good or ill...the "progressive" Leftys can be counted on to Blame Bush!
(Because Bush is to Blame for Everything)
SGT USMC 1ea:
Das ist gut, mein bruder.
But IIRC, there was no "avec" (with) in the Big Mac™ jingle:
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
(Like you said above, en Français)
truth_is_freedom:
Guten Tag! ¡Buenas Dias! Bonjour!
Oh yeah...good day. :-)
truth_is_freedom:
Camo never sleeps...just hides sometimes.
(But not from the truth)
It's the nature of the beast...
SGT USMC 1ea:
Je pense tellement aussi, mais j'aime de plus jeunes femmes.
C'est la vie...
Hey what's with all this French-speak? You trying to give us the double talk?
NYUK NYUK NYUK.
Another great post, Sir!
Once again, I arrived late at the party. The dog days have discouraged me from slaving over a hot computer recently, and I'm playing catch-up.
I think I spotted the flaw in the condemnation early on in the story. The Koran Surah 5:32 speaks of unjustified killing. The problem is, the terrorists in general are considering themselves part of the "band of people who invite to righteousness", and they consider themselves justifed under the doctrine of dhimmitude to be totally justified in wreaking their horrors on the innocent.
The Nazis considered their genocidal acts to be justified, because they perpetrated them on "subhumans". Russians, Jews, Gypsies, and anyone else who didn't make the cut according to their standards were bipedal animals, good for nothing but slave labor, and bop 'em till they drop. Buried in the Koran is the admonition that non-believers should be invited to convert to Islam, but if they refuse, they should be conquered and enslaved.
Al Qaeda and their ilk consider themselves to be justified in what they do, and like the Blues Brothers, they're on "a mission from God."
I gotta answer some mail and get a post up on UPI. Good post, Jack!
truth_is_freedom:
Well, I'm just indescribably (ineffably) sorry that my textbook French isn't up to your lofty standards...not! I've only ever spent a week in France, many years ago. My particular "lingua franca" is Anglais. As is yours, Irish lady.
And as for fooling anyone here, you're one of many that "howie" fooled. Adieu...
Libby Gone™:
The "French-speak" is simply responding in kind to others, although I'm much better in English or Español...
The trotting Possum:
Early or late to the party, all that matters is that you show up.
As for the fatwa, the main thing about it is that the emphasis is on not killing civilians and innocents. Of course that is deplorable, and it should not have taken nearly four years since 9-11-01 for them to have gone "on record" about this...but like the title says, better late than never.
SGT USMC 1ea:
Excellent analogy about how people take scriptural references out of context to "justify" questionable actions...
As usual, SGT USMC 1 said it much more succinctly than I could.
It's nice that some in Islam are beginning to speak out against the radicals. I have to wonder, though. Are they doing it because they truly believe what they're saying, or is it a defensive reaction to defuse the growing backlash against all of Islam?
Trotting Possum:
SGT USMC 1ea does have a way with words...in multiple lingos.
As for the rationale behind the Islamic community finally speaking out, the important thing is their sincerity, not the reason. Even if it is out of self-preservation, as long as it helps, it's great; self-preservation is a strong motivation, in any case...
Well I'm late to the party also, but I can't help myself. Been back and forth to Germany for a few weeks and not much time to check blogs.
Camo and Possum and all others, the original post of this I believe is what many of the Muslims believe, and Possum, many believe as to your post.
What is needed is their religious leaders to denounce the beliefs of those that Possum brought up. We do not hear those beliefs being shouted on the Al Jazeer (sp)network, or even when one of their mosques come in to question. That is when their earthly supreme leaders need to step up, call press conferences and speak as to the original post of Camo.
Any religion, as others pointed out, can bend and manipulate their writings to fit their own beliefs, but they are on the outside and those need to be crushed hard as soon as those seeds are planted. History shows that it doesn't take much for a nut to stimulate the masses to their own misdeeds.
kwl:
As I said, all that matters is that you show up.
Many Muslims do believe that terrorist groups are using their religion as an excuse to commit violent acts, but of course this is not a new concept; many people have used various religions to "justify" their violent actions, for millenia now.
What is important here is that a recognized authority within the Islamic community has officially repudiated the practice of killing innocents and civilians in the name of their faith. This should have some impact on the situation...how much of one remains to be seen.
SGT USMC 1ea:
As for your having chased anyone away, I'm sure you're familiar with the CA Governor's most famous line.
Regarding brains and muscle in the same package, you're probably right...it can't happen; it's a physical impossibility.
(Hee hee!)
Well, I was going to post this on my blog when I got home tonight, but you and Cassandra seem to have it covered. However, in a vain attempt to get more people to see it, I will provide links to both sites.
As to how sincere they are, time will tell. I have heard other clerics denounce the terrorists as not being true to Islam.
As to the desert guys not heeding. Probably true. Doesn't matter. Those in the West (i.e., UK and US) do listen to them. Now if we can only control our borders....
Got to go.
Pat'sRick©:
People will do what they want to anyway, but at least they can no longer rationalize their actions with their "faith" in this case.
This is the second such statement I have seen deniouncing radical jihadis, coming from Muslims in America. It appears that they are coming to understand the difference between sympathizing with the Arabs doing these things and justifying such behavior. As with the others posting here, I can only hope their actions follow their rhetoric.
Yo Camo,
That's more than once you covered my backside.
Thanks
Camo! Post again man!
Blog! Blog! Blog!
*Crowd joins in*
Blog! Blog! Blog!
I hate that you have well thought out posts. Be like me! Post meaningless crap all the time!
Yes ... we need more meaningless crap. There are only about 10 million right-wing blogs spewing out crap already.
And that's ON TOP OF George W Bush. Someone should remove his feeding tube.
Well aren't we just the kindered spirit? You know, '77 was a great year for you liberal idiots. Jimmy Carter took over, draft dodgers were pardoned, Hanafi Muslims took over three buildings in DC, Carter signed a Nuclear-proliferation pact, which included the USSR (and we know they really wanted to do well) Four years of appeasement in the Whitehouse. Way to go Liberal idiot! By the way, atleast we 'crap spewing' right-wing bloggers back things up with facts.
'Busch is teh nazi' Seems to be the mantra of most of you morons.
Yada yada yada ...
How about quoting me some of GW's major 'successes' since he took office?
Freeing 50 million people, bringing Democracy to the Middle East, Bringing the Country back from a major (Clinton) Recession, even after 9/11. Tax Cuts, spurring the economy, rebuilt the military that Clinton Destroyed, broke down the walls that disallowed Intelligence Agencies to share information, The economy has generated nearly 4 million new jobs since May 2003...I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot ove glaringly obvious ones, but it's 8am, I just woke up, and I'm going to eat breakfast. Thanks though, liberal scum.
tsk tsk
Camo doesn't like people being rude! You can't call me "scum" here. Camo will have to delete you!
[Freeing 50 million people where???]
Afghanistan and Iraq.
Iraq: 26,074,906 people
Afghanistan: 29,928,987 people.
Did I say 50 million? I mean 56,003,893 people.
Yes ... we need more meaningless crap. There are only about 10 million right-wing blogs spewing out crap already.
And that's ON TOP OF George W Bush. Someone should remove his feeding tube.
That was kind of rude too.
Beerme:
The more times they say it, the better; hopefully it will get through to some of them.
Libby Gone™:
¡No problemo, señor!
Josh:
I've been busy...you've been doing pretty well refuting the "meaningless crap" being spewed by "MK77", but I do (unfortunately) have to agree with him/her about the name calling. It's much more effective not to let 'em make you lose it like that.
MK77:
Last I heard, "Dubya" was in better health than you probably are. Consequently, he has no feeding tube to pull...
He talks like a zombie and behaves like a child. Someone is either tube-feeding him or has him on drugs. Must be the result of his lobotomy ...
Didn't Bill O'Reilly tell you all about it?
I thought he gave you guys your script.
mk77:
Zombies don't talk; mostly they moan a lot. Nobody ever accused "Dubya" of being eloquent, but a dummy he ain't. Cite me a plausible example of him acting like a child...then tell me what it has to do with the topic of the thread, anyway.
He stole two elections, he's a smart childish zombie.
Ouch...that smarts!!!
Why do you persist in putting labels on people? Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "lib" or a "leftie" or a "DUmmy" or some such accepted "mantra". You're so used to throwing these labels around you can't see anything, or anybody, else.
Can't you think outside of those particular boxes for even five seconds???
You can't imagine anyone who thinks GW is a lousy president without automatically assuming they are a Clinton-lover, or a Gore supporter -- or that they think Kerry is God's gift.
Such a narrow mindset ...
"Unanswered is the question that caused Sheehan to start her vigil in the first place: what exactly is this "noble cause" that we're sending our soldiers to die for? Was it to protect the national security of the United States from WMD's that didn't exist? Was is to eliminate the insidious ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Queda that were never there? Was it to avenge the victims of 9/11 by attacking a country that had nothing to do with those horrific acts? Was is the spreading of Democracy and "freedom" in a country that, at best, will turn into an Islamic republic--assuming that it doesn't fall into full-scale civil war?
No one really seems to know. But with the justifications behind "our mission" in a continual state of flux, the American people--and, even more so, the soldiers risking their lives in Iraq--deserve better than an empty message to "stay the course". Where's the nobility of having American troops die for a mission that no one can explain without a catchphrase?"
Above is what the outside world--and half of America, is now asking. Except: the outside world is also asking why so many thousands of Iraqis had to suffer napalm, cluster bombs, and thousands upon thousands of deaths too. Not to mention the lack of water and electricity and the fact that all their doctors, lawyers, teachers and other professionals are leaving ...
To respond to why we call you a lefty or a liberal...
"Yes ... we need more meaningless crap. There are only about 10 million right-wing blogs spewing out crap already.
And that's ON TOP OF George W Bush. Someone should remove his feeding tube. "
Sounds like something they'd say. And I'd also like to say, OVER half of America either dislikes or doesn't care about Cindy Sheehan, and don't agree with her tactics.
As to the other thing, I really don't feel like fighting a stupid womans spoon fed BS, but hey, we'll try.
We submitted a dozen resolutions for war, not just WMDs or non-compliance. You ever heard of the cease fire agreement back in the early 90's? Well, when Suddam fired a shot at Kurds, it was broken. There's one legal reason for war. Is there something wrong with freeing 26 million people? We brought democracy to one of the most violent lands in the world, and it IS working, I don't know how you LIBS (yes, it's what you are) are looking to Cindy Sheehan for foreign policy idea's. Do you know how many people died under Suddam Hussein? No, you can't, because we're still digging up mass graves. They had no hope when they were dying under him. Every life lost is a sad loss as a country walks in the right direction. Water and electricity? There are still alot of places without it, but it's changing every day. And where did you read doctors and layers and teachers are leaving? I've never seen that, so I can't comment. For every story the main stream media covers about how horrible Iraq is, there is another story of how things are getting better. You just don't see it. The soldiers have good things to say about Iraq-The fat desk jockeys at the New York Times have no idea.
There were no terrorists in Iraq before you invaded it.
You brought them in there.
Can't you get that into your heads?
Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
Saddam had no links with al Qaeda.
Saddam ran a secular state, and Osama bin Laden called for Saddam to be killed.
Saddam had no WMD, which is why Bush said he was going in there.
You brought the terrorists to Iraq, by leaving the borders unguarded when you invaded it.
You caused all the mayhem and death that has been going on ever since.
You have caused the deaths of thousands with bombs and napalm and you have maimed children with cluster bombs.
You have caused Iraqis to (still) have no electricity for several hours every day in Baghdad.
You have caused their doctors and lawyers and teachers to leave (Google it.)
You are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people.
And all because Iraq has the second largest oil fields in the world.
Bush and Co are the greatest terrorists this planet is currently facing, and they are trying very hard now to stir up trouble with Iran.
We may well see a world war because of Bush. Russia will not tolerate interference with Iran, since Iran has not broken any treaties. Russia's Foreign Minister has just recently warned that the US should leave Iran alone.
"We consider that it would be counter-productive and dangerous to use force, the serious consequences of which would be barely predictable." said the Russian Foreign Ministry.
Get your heads out of Fox for once in your lives and read the real truth -- not the skewed "facts" you get from your warmongering media fools and your git of a president.
[the fact that you think I'm a woman is just one more of your stupid assumptions]
"We consider that it would be counter-productive and dangerous to use force, the serious consequences of which would be barely predictable." warning from the Russian Foreign Ministry to the Bush Administration about prospective plans to attack Iran
There's only one thing that Americans need to remember when the read about the standoff between the Bush administration and Iran. There is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. But, don't take my word for it. That is the conclusion of Mohammed El Baradei, the chief of the UN's watchdog agency, the International Atomic Energy Agency; the most respected nuclear investigative agency in the world today.
After conducting 2 years of the most rigorous "go anywhere, see anything" investigations, the agency gave Iran a clean bill of health.
No nukes! Not now, not ever!
We should recall that it was the IAEA headed by El Baradei that warned the US that Saddam did not have a nuclear weapons program, and tried to save the Bush administration the embarrassment of attacking an unarmed country. That didn't work. As we know now the intelligence was "fixed" to fit the policy, and the policy was aggression.
With that tragedy in mind, we should not allow ourselves to be duped by the propaganda that passes as news in the US. We must continue to remind ourselves over and over again; there is no evidence that Iran has a nuclear weapons program.
None, Nada, Zippo!
This is not a detail that you should expect to see in the western media. Of the hundreds of articles I've combed through on Iran only 1% to 2% even casually mention this salient fact. The reasons for this are fairly obvious to those who watched the media carefully build the case for war with Iraq based entirely on false information. We don't need to go over that appalling story here. We simply need to recognize that the media to large extent has been successfully "embedded" into the political establishment and operates in the interests of ownership. If the elites who control our "privately" owned media want war, you can bet that there will be a torrent of cleverly-written articles supporting that effort.
That, in fact, is what is happening with Iran today.
Two major stories appeared this week connecting Iran to the IED (roadside bombs) that are killing American servicemen in Iraq. One story was in Time magazine by Michael Ware and seemed reasonably credible except that none of the information could be reliably proved.
Is this simply more disinformation used to pave the way for war? It certainly merges nicely with Rumsfeld's claims that Iran is involved in the insurgency, but it, in many respects, it completely defies logic.
Why would Iranian Shi'ites support Sunnis in their quest to retake power?
Iran already has "their guy" al Jaffari in the top spot so why rock the boat?
This question is never seriously addressed in either article, which leads us to suspect that there may be ulterior motives.
The Bush Administration has never backed away from its original goal of "regime change" in Iran, so we must assume that the reports of ethnic disturbances in Iran's Ahwaz province are probably instigated by either the CIA or surrogates in the various Iranian dissident groups acting on behalf of the Bush administration. The Iranian government claims to have captured suspects of these regional uprisings and have said that they have solid proof that they are supported by the US.
The most prominent of these groups is the Mujahidin Klaq (MEK) a group that is still on the US State Depts. list of terrorist organizations even though they receive direct funding and support from the US government. According to Seymour Hersh the MEK and other organizations have been sent back into Iran to foment revolution or carry out covert operations.
Certainly no one is surprised by this given the administration's open hostility towards the current Islamic regime. The fact that the "ethnic strife" is taking place in oil-rich Ahwaz province, however, is interesting. We can be reasonably certain that the US does not plan to occupy all of Iran if there is a war.
Can we be equally certain that the administration strategy isn't simply to annex the primary oil producing region and bomb the main chemical, biological and conventional weapons sites across the country at the same time?
That way, the US would control the oil, eliminate Iran as a regional-military rival to Israel, and avoid the pitfalls of a massive occupation.
There are potential hazards to Washington's prospective plan. For one thing, Iran has violated none of its agreements under the current NPT (Nuclear Nonproliferation treaty) so, there is no reason for the IAEA to refer the case to the UN Security Council and no cause for punitive action. Iran is allowed to convert uranium under the NPT if it is carefully monitored by the watchdog agency and if it is used strictly for peaceful purposes. The conversion process does not produce weapons-grade enriched uranium, which can be used in nuclear weapons, but a milder form that can be used in nuclear power plants. If there are any violations to this regimen, the IAEA is required to report them immediately to the Security Council.
So, we can see that the US is just ratcheting up the pressure in the media to make it appear as though the EU supports the hard-line policies of the Bush administration and is willing to support their position before the UNSC.
The EU, of course, is simply being bullied by the administration and trying to avoid the impending conflict.
Another possible drawback to the Bush strategy is the sudden and unexpected insertion of Russia into the standoff. Last week Russia cautioned the US against considering the use of force with Iran. The Russian foreign ministry issued a statement saying, "We consider that it would be counter-productive and dangerous to use force, the serious consequences of which would be barely predictable."
Russia's statement was predictably oblique, but the message is clear; Russia will not allow Iran to go the way of Iraq. Not surprisingly, this veiled-threat of Russian retaliation did not appear in any newspaper in the United States. It simply wouldn't due to have the American public know that the administration was risking nuclear holocaust to further its interests in the region.
When I wrote my first article on this topic 2 weeks ago ("Why Iran will lead to World War 3) very few readers took the possibility seriously. Since then, the more-insightful political analyst Paul Craig Roberts added his voice to the fray with his article "Get Ready for WW 3". This new statement from the Russian foreign ministry should demonstrate that we may be closer to the brink then anyone had imagined.
The UN and the EU need to convene meetings immediately on the likelihood of an American attack on Iran and issue an unambiguous statement that any military action taken on the part of the United States or Israel without Security Council approval will be taken as a direct assault on the rest of the international community an a tacit declaration of world war.
This is no time for equivocating or backpedaling. World leaders need to rise to the occasion and perform their duties. As we know from Iraq, if Washington is planning for war, it won't be easily deterred."
Complacent, ignorant, and incredibly naive -- that goes for everyone who writes here to congratulate Camojack and pat each other on the back.
OPEN YOUR EYES!
Wow mk77, are you the new "howie?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
How blind can we be? Of course those lovely Iranians have no nuke weapons ideas. They're obviously struggling with their energy needs and therefore NEED nuclear power to help them out. (Never mind all that oil and that nasty natural gas that they burn off at the wellhead.)
I'd tell you to open your eyes, but then they would be full of caca, as your head is firmly up your nether region.
You crack me up!
mk77:
I think you get called a "Lefty" because you fit the profile with your (unattributed) copy & paste, your ad hominems, and your "talking points"...just like Josh said.
Kajun:
Quite right; Saddam financed terrorism, condoned it, provided sanctuary, etc. Whether or not he had anything to do with events on 9/11/01 is totally irrelevant. "Complacent, ignorant, and incredibly naive" really do describe the person who originally posted them, too.
MargeinMI:
This mk77 isn't the new "howie", but was certainly one of many who was duped by the original.
mig:
Thanks - I needed that. :-)
"talking points"????
So what do you post on your blog then? Weather forecasts?
What else would people be talking about only matters that are currently relevant to all of us?
"Whether or not he had anything to do with events on 9/11/01 is totally irrelevant"
How convenient!!! But it wasn't 'irrelevant' when Bush wanted to invade Iraq. He inserted 'Saddam' into every reference to 9/11, which was precisely why Americans were so gung-ho about going in there.
For heaven's sake! The quotes and clips of all that are available ... Do you think people are deaf dumb and blind? You can't airbrush Bush's words out of history -- how ever much you would like to. The 'mindbending exercises' you lot go on with here are just staggering.
Read it again:
"That is the conclusion of Mohammed El Baradei, the chief of the UN's watchdog agency, the International Atomic Energy Agency; the most respected nuclear investigative agency in the world today.
After conducting 2 years of the most rigorous "go anywhere, see anything" investigations, the agency gave Iran a clean bill of health ...
We should recall that it was the IAEA headed by El Baradei that warned the US that Saddam did not have a nuclear weapons program, and tried to save the Bush administration the embarrassment of attacking an unarmed country."
You want to make fools of yourselves all over again??
And here's your attribution, Camo:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9908.htm
Anyone who exists on a diet of Fox will get a very one-sided view of the world. And I don't read "the left" either. I read a mix of mainstream and alternative, right and left. It's the only way to stay properly informed. I'd recommend it. To ALL the brainwashed applauders here.
What a waste of space the neocons are. The "real" world is alternately laughing and despairing. The sooner Bush is out of the White House the better. We will have some hope of returning to normality.
Camojack talks of polls and says "it's not freaking popularity contest" or whatever. Sure ... but Bush won't like to see those figures drop any further. He's already at his wit's end trying to counteract the anti-war feeling that is polarising around Cindy.
What did her son die for? Iraq is not free. Don't be so utterly stupid! The place is a quagmire on the verge of either civil war or worse. And the latest attempt at a "constitution" has the Sunnis angry. Even if they find agreement, it'll be a theocracy, a similar country to Iran. NOT the western version of "democracy" that Bush and Blair envisaged. So what was it all about? Creating a strong ally for Iran?????
Fools.
mk77:
Yes, totally irrelevant.
I suggest you read my previous post:
Oil-for-influence?
The salient portion is as follows:
"...when the "cowboy" went ahead and did what was needed to break the regime that had been gassing people, shooting at our planes, supporting terrorism, etc., he got accused of engaging in a unilateral and unauthorized war against a sovereign nation.
Yet there are still those who say we shouldn't have gone to war with Iraq; that bringing down the Taliban was the right thing to do, but that Saddam Hussein was just a petty tyrant, and only a problem for his own people.
Oh yeah, and maybe some of his neighbors, too."
And I mean read ALL of it, including the links.
BTW, thanks for the attribution, but next time why not just post a link instead of copying & pasting articles in their entirety here? I find that practice annoying; and now that you know, in the future I'll delete such long-winded posts...fool.
(Turnabout is fair play, right?!)
Any excuse to delete. LOL
Go Camojack!
BTW, why didn't you answer this?
"Iraq is not free. Don't be so utterly stupid! The place is a quagmire on the verge of either civil war or worse. And the latest attempt at a "constitution" has the Sunnis angry. Even if they find agreement, it'll be a theocracy, a similar country to Iran. NOT the western version of "democracy" that Bush and Blair envisaged. So what was it all about?? Creating a strong ally for Iran?????"
That's what your countrymen and women are dying for?
That's what you expected Europe to support?
And the UN too?
Jeeze ....
mk77:
I don't need any excuse to delete; but I'm a benevolent dictator...imminently fair.
Did you read ALL of the linked articles? Somehow, I doubt it.
As for what I did or didn't respond to, look in the mirror...
Aha ! A NEW Troll? Thank GOD for the intellecually superior! What would we do without them?
Libby Gone™:
Ain't no new news here; check the back threads...
"imminently fair"?
You're going to be fair in the next 5 minutes??
"Thank GOD for the intellecually superior!"
LOL ...
mk77,
I don't know where you're getting your info, but Iraq is NOT a quagmire. Yes, there are some hot spots still, and the coalition with the help of the newly trained IRAQIs are cleaning out the bad seeds. Most of the country however, is well on the way to stability.
I can't see into the future, and I don't think you can either, so who knows what will happen with the constitution. I do believe that they are working TOGETHER to make it fair for all factions. I don't think all those people would have gone out in January to dye their fingers blue if they weren't interested in participating in their government. I think they know what's going on next door in Iran and don't want that for Iraq. Time will tell. That's the big factor: TIME. People who want instantaneous results in this complicated world will always be disappointed.
Read some history, dude.
Counting The Dead:
RAMADI – Three car bombs exploded near U.S. forces in Ramadi, 110 km (70 miles) west of Baghdad, in an apparently coordinated strike by insurgents, police and witnesses said. A car blew next to a U.S. convoy was passing, damaging a U.S. vehicle and wounding three bystanders. A suicide truck bomber rammed a building often used by U.S. troops, bringing down part of the structure, witnesses said. As U.S. reinforcements arrived, a third bomb concealed in a car parked near a mosque went off, a reporter for Reuters said. U.S. forces in Ramadi did not immediately reply to a request for information.
BAQUBA – Eight policeman were killed and 11 were wounded when a suicide bomber detonated his explosives in a dining area at the provincial government offices. Policeman Salman al-Dahlaki said U.S. soldiers were at the facility during the attack and the wounded were taken to a nearby U.S. base. An Iraqi security source said there were American casualties but there was no immediate comment from the U.S. military.
NAJAF – Two policemen were killed and another wounded by insurgents during a raid on the town of Haydariya, 30 km (20 miles) north of Najaf. A police source said insurgents were taken into custody after the raid.
BAQUBA – One policeman was killed when gunmen burst into his house in the Yarmouk district of Baquba, 65 km (40 miles) northeast of Baghdad, a relative of the policeman said.
BAGHDAD – A deputy justice minister's motorcade was ambushed by gunmen near the Shurta tunnel, southwestern Baghdad. A police source said three of his bodyguards were injured.
KIRKUK – Iraqi Environment Minister Nermeen Othman survived an assassination attempt on Monday, a ministry official said. Three of the Kurdish politicians' bodyguards were wounded when gunmen opened fire on her convoy south of Kirkuk, as she was travelling from the Kurdish city of Sulaimaniya to Baghdad.
TIKRIT – An energy pipeline from Baiji refinery to Baghdad was blown up at dawn in Isshaaqi town, 30 km (20 miles) north of Balad, a source at the Baiji refinery said.
BAGHDAD – A U.S. soldier was killed in a rocket attack in southern Baghdad on Monday afternoon, the U.S. military said in a statement.
FALLUJA – A U.S. soldier was killed on Monday when the vehicle he was in was struck by a roadside bomb during combat operations near Falluja, 50 km (30 miles) west of Baghdad, the U.S. military said in a statement.
http://snipurl.com/h646
===
Iraqi Minister attacked in Baghdad is safe :
Iraq's Environment Minister Narmin Othman escaped an assassination attempt when gunmen attacked her convoy north of Baghdad wounding three bodyguards, a police official said Tuesday.
http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/08/23/61578.html
http://snipurl.com/h64h
===
Triple car bombs target U.S. troops in west Iraq:
It was not clear if any U.S. troops were wounded or killed in the attack
http://snipurl.com/h64i
===
Two extra US battalions to Iraq:
THE Pentagon plans to deploy two additional battalions to Iraq amid rising insurgent attacks ahead of an anticipated referendum on a constitution, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said today.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16367071-23109,00.html
http://snipurl.com/h64k
===
Iraq assembly gets charter draft, Sunnis upset :
Iraq's Shi'ite-led government ruled out major concessions on Tuesday over a draft constitution that parliament looks set to pass this week in the teeth of minority Sunni objections that it could ignite civil war.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9919.htm
http://snipurl.com/h64m
===
Juan Cole: Coup in Baghdad:
Unfinished Constitution Presented, vote Delayed
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9920.htm
http://snipurl.com/h64n
===
Iraq's Assembly Is Given Charter, Still Unfinished:
In a legal sleight of hand, the Iraqis decided to give themselves three additional days to close the gaps. - That left some Iraqis on the 275-member National Assembly wondering whether they were still in charge, and some Sunni leaders asserting that the delay was illegal.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9921.htm
http://snipurl.com/h64o
===
Sunnis threaten civil war as Iraq constitution deadline extended:
Sunni leaders reacted with fury at the proposition, claiming that it would inflame the insurgency and trigger civil war and vowed to defeat the charter at a national referendum later this year unless demands for federalism were dropped.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9922.htm
http://snipurl.com/h64p
Sure, Margeinmi, Iraq is fine! It's all in my mind!
Where do you get YOUR info? BushCo and FoxCo?
mk77:
War is Hell
Unfortunately, lots more people were killed in the U.S. last week than in Iraq...
Oh dear. You were invaded??
I didn't hear about it.
mk77:
Invaded? Nah...home-grown killers.
(You know, like in Ireland?)
Ever hear of Anonymizer?
Or Anonymouse?
And, Camojack, do you seriously think that that ("Unfortunately, lots more people were killed in the U.S. last week than in Iraq") is an adequate answer to, a) the likes of Cindy Sheehan, or b) what I posted above about Iraq?
Or am I to assume that you just prefer to avoid talking about it (Arab oil, terrorists, Iraq, Islam, Iran, ... etc)? Because they're all one subject, as you well know.
You might find this useful, Jack:
http://help.blogger.com/bin/answer.py?answer=1203
mk77:
You assume that I prefer to avoid talking about Arab oil, terrorists, Iraq, Islam, Iran, etc.?!
Perhaps you should go re-read some of my other posts/comments...and also, review conventional wisdom regarding assume while you're about it.
PS: Thanks for the link(s)...
mk77,
I never said everything in Iraq is fine. No, I'm not naive, rarely watch Fox News; like you I get my news from a wide variety of sources. Perhaps I'm more of a 'glass half full' person. My point was that for every bad thing like the ones you cited, there are ten GOOD things happening that don't get reported in the MSM.
Personally, If I was an Iraqi, I think I would be thankful that there are folks out there such as the Coalition and newly trained IRAQI police to fight the lunatics, rather than living in fear that Uday or Qusay might grab up my family, rape them in front of me and then shove us all in a wood chipper at their sick whim.
Don't you think they deserve at least a CHANCE of living in a country where there is rule of law, instead of rule of sick, twisted murderous maniacs? I think all those folks with blue fingers back in January would tend to agree with me.
There are evil people in this world, mk77. Humans are imperfect beings, always have been, always will be. If you can't make the distinction between crazed fanatics striking out and honest Iraqis putting themselves in harm's way to better their country, I feel sorry for you. Not only is your glass half empty, what's in it is poison.
Camojack,
I believe I wrote "Am I to assume?" I do not need to "review conventional wisdom regarding assume", thanks. I was asking a question.
But your flippant answer about deaths in Iraq would lead anyone to think that you don't want to discuss the appalling situation there.
And Margeinmi, take your head out of the sand, for god's sake. Would you like to tell me today's ten GOOD things??? And if you're going to drag in stuff like 'wood chippers', give the source for these FACTS. That's what people are always yelling about here. FACTS. FACTS. FACTS. And don't forget, ALL mainstream media sources are not believed here!
I know where that story came from and it's a sh*tload of bunkum. (Which is not to say that his sons were nice little boys.)
mk77:
What flippant answer about deaths in Iraq? I said that unfortunately there were more deaths in the U.S. last week...a point of fact. This was not meant to imply that Iraqi deaths are any less unfortunate...
"In American Mania: When More is Not Enough", renowned psychiatrist Dr. Peter C. Whybrow skillfully and sensitively critiques the mess America has made of its consumer culture.
"What have we become? According to Whybrow's scientific and philosophical analyses, we've devolved into a nation of overindulging, overstimulated flakes addicted to easy access and instant gratification.
"Dr. Whybrow argues that our seemingly interminable quest for more -- more money, more power, more toys, more cars -- has in fact become a form of clinical mania marked by symptoms such as anxiety, depression and obesity."
mk77:
So...how do those quotes relate to the thread, anyway?
Are you one of those types who think Americans deserve terrorist acts, because of their conspicuous consumption?
Obviously you have no appreciation for how much you benefit from a strong U.S.; yes, you.
Ingrate...
Tell me how. I'll be fascinated.
mk77:
Tell me how your anti-American screed pertains to the thread, and I shall consider it. But probably I will just let you stew in your benighted juices...
Kajun:
Good points all, but undoubtedly wasted on the "Blame America First" crowd.
"Without the freedom enjoyed in North America, you would not have many things you take for granted, such as a telephone, a micro wave oven, a computer, and probably very little food to eat"
Oh my god. Is that what you believe? Do some research for heaven's sake before you come out with rubbish like that again.
Peter C. Whybrow, is Director of the Neuropsychiatric Institute and Executive Chair of the Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences at UCLA. Dr. Whybrow received his training in endocrinology and psychiatry in London and North Carolina. He was a member of the scientific staff of the British Medical Research Council before joining the faculty of Dartmouth Medical School, where he served as Chairman of Psychiatry and later Executive Dean. He was recruited to the University of Pennsylvania in 1984 where he was the Ruth Meltzer Professor and Chairman of Psychiatry until 1996. Dr. Whybrow is an international authority on depression and manic-depressive disease and the effects of thyroid hormone on brain and behavior. He is Vice-Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Board to the National Depressive and Manic-Depressive Association and was named NARSASD Senior Investigator in 1989. A Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the American Psychiatric Association and the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Dr. Whybrow has lectured widely across the United States and Europe. He is the author of numerous scientific papers and five books, the latest of which, A Mood Apart; Depression, Mania, and Other Afflictions of the Self, is a definitive guide to the experience and science of mood disorder written expressly for the general public.
And you're blaming ME for an anti-American screed???
mk77:
Blaming you for writing an anti-American screed? Not at all; I simply asked you how your posting of it here pertains to the thread, which is about a fatwa condemning terrorism and religious extremism. Is that too complicated for you to comprehend?
"Blaming you for writing an anti-American screed? Not at all"
I see. So what was this then?
"Are you one of those types who think Americans deserve terrorist acts, because of their conspicuous consumption?"
mk77:
It was a question...a valid one, under the circumstances. Just about everything you've ever posted here is anti-American; what solutions have you offered? But then, you don't answer questions, do you? You just ask them, and have a "hissy fit" when yours aren't answered. Get over yourself...
I didn't create the mess in Iraq. Don't ask me for solutions. "You break it, you fix it."
Kajun:
Peter, Z. Lowbrow?!
mk77:
No, you didn't create the mess in Iraq...that was Hussein's doing.
(The U.S. is cleaning it up now)
But don't bother to ask questions if you won't answer any...
For those too stupid to figure it out, calling me names will get you deleted.
It's sort of funny what some people will say when they know you can't find them; that's...what's...pathetic.
(And cowardly)
Go ahead, post again: don't be civil, get deleted.
(It's great fun from this end!!!)
I think that's clear enough.
(If not? Too bad...)
It's amazing what'll amuse some people.
Toodle pip, Jack.
I've never argued on any blog (and I've debated on many) where my comments were deleted (so conveniently) by the owner.
Doesn't show much guts to me.
Now delete to your little heart's content. And "have a nice day".
mk77:
I'm not here to impress the likes of you...no deletion needed; you didn't call me a name. The little dig about not showing much guts is laughable too, since I'm so easily amused. "Toodle pip", Junior...
<< Home